Curse

Reverend Dr · Aug 21, 2011, 03:44 PM // 15:44

Organizing JQ/FQ won't do anything unless they put in DP and increase the rez timer to at least 1 min. That and the majority of player attention being focused on NPC's are why those are often not considered 'real' pvp formats.

Fate Crusher · Aug 21, 2011, 03:50 PM // 15:50

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

lol

so wrong... dota has more objective than fa/jq/ab altogether, now they are doing a $1mil international tournament..

an arena become low end is from the time that it turned into random team...not because of its objective.

e-sport feel.. is about organised. not about the map objectives.

and choke point?..not just favor to roj.. but all aoe skills....which has long cast time and all prompt to interruption...

I'm sorry but I said "builds like RoJ". It's gimmicks, any way to exploit the map objectives.

And why on earth are you bringing in DoTA? DoTA first of all, and every other moba game will always be about forcing ganks and never fair gameplay. 2v1, 3v1, you are always looking for ganks and gaining an upperhand. Even in a TF or lane fights, the result is pretty much guaranteeed the moment you initiate. LoL is an e-sport and DoTA2 might become one as well, but this is not because of objectives but because of map control and smart play.

I'd rather not get in a discussion with you, mainly because of your pure lack of PvP knowledge and your ineffective, often childish, argumental powers (see http://www.guildwarsguru.com/forum/m...t10489467.html), but because you're already hijacking the thread.

To counter elitism, the game has to change. You can't just take away ranks or split ranks into specific stages. But to be honest, there's nothing stopping new players from creating a guild and build their own community of new players, instead of trying to join heavily experienced people. I agree that an r6 should not discriminate against an r3-5, because he has nothing to brag about apart from an extra few days of playing. That should definitely be frowned upon.

Anet never prepared the game for a lower population. They concentrated on catering for high-end PvP players by creating mAT and other things, but didn't realise it would be harder for new players once the population decreased heavily. Their initial statements were "just make a guild and find other new people!". Sure, but there aren't enough anymore. What have they done? nothing.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Reverend Dr

That and the majority of player attention being focused on NPC's are why those are often not considered 'real' pvp formats.

Agreed. I did say this but mine was more longwinded. I need to learn how to be more concise :P

lursey · Aug 21, 2011, 03:57 PM // 15:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fate Crusher

I'm sorry but I said "builds like RoJ". It's gimmicks, any way to exploit the map objectives.

And why on earth are you bringing in DoTA? DoTA first of all, and every other moba game will always be about forcing ganks and never fair gameplay. 2v1, 3v1, you are always looking for ganks and gaining an upperhand. Even in a TF or lane fights, the result is pretty much guaranteeed the moment you initiate. LoL is an e-sport and DoTA2 might become one as well, but this is not because of objectives but because of map control and smart play.

To counter elitism, the game has to change. You can't just take away ranks or split ranks into specific stages. But to be honest, there's nothing stopping new players from creating a guild and build their own community of new players, instead of trying to join heavily experienced people. I agree that an r6 should not discriminate against an r3-5, because he has nothing to brag about apart from an extra few days of playing. That should definitely be frowned upon.

Anet never prepared the game for a lower population. They concentrated on catering for high-end PvP players by creating mAT and other things, but didn't realise it would be harder for new players once the population decreased heavily. Their initial statements were "just make a guild and find other new people!". Sure, but there aren't enough anymore. What have they done? nothing.

exploiting map objectives.. and map control...
same thing?

urania · Aug 21, 2011, 07:13 PM // 19:13

exploit: the use of a >bug or design flaw< by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

control: the ability to purposefully direct, or suppress, change. so to use something to your advantage without exploiting.

same thing?

lursey · Aug 21, 2011, 07:34 PM // 19:34

Quote:

Originally Posted by urania

exploit: the use of a >bug or design flaw< by a player to their advantage in a manner not intended by the game's designers.

control: the ability to purposefully direct, or suppress, change. so to use something to your advantage without exploiting.

same thing?

so using roj/aoe on chok point is an exploit or not?
I don't know fate crusher seems to group them as an exploit...

is like saying half full is good, but half empty is bad..

Lord Mip · Aug 21, 2011, 09:27 PM // 21:27

If JQ would ever become a competitive format it would definitely need some reworking. NPC's would have to be placed more spread out at the points to make AoE less effective, and their skill sets would have to change to favor melee classes a bit more. Also, some of the glaring bugs (Juggers/Turtles getting stuck) and imbalances (The Yellow point Ranger Shrines) would need to be fixed. But to say JQ can not be competitive at all I beg to differ. Obviously you are fighting NPC's a lot, but in a lot of GvG games, the most critical and effective play comes from splits demolishing NPC's, which is in essence the same thing. Of course, JQ is currently dominated by gimmicks, but perhaps that is partially true because it is not organized enough to have players counter those builds. I often play a Ranger in JQ, as opposed to a RoJ monk or Necro Bomber. Not only can I cripple and kill turtles, but I can also prevent Necro Bombers from even reaching the shrine and I can prevent RoJ from ever been cast. Obviously, in competitive play, such builds would see much more play and to counter that players would have to come up with new, innovative builds to counter the interrupting. Perhaps Assassin's will see some extensive use to take down players like me who stalk RoJ monks and shut them down. Maybe our team would then again bring a monk to protect me from that Assassin. We just created a new meta-game. It's essentially a more split-based objective heavy PvP format.

Swingline · Aug 22, 2011, 01:11 AM // 01:11

^Agree

I play AoE prot monk and nothing can take the shrine im at or kill a turtle/juggy unless 4 or 5 rush me.

Missing HB · Aug 22, 2011, 06:57 AM // 06:57

Quote:

Originally Posted by lursey

so using roj/aoe on chok point is an exploit or not?
I don't know fate crusher seems to group them as an exploit...

is like saying half full is good, but half empty is bad..

Well he's not entirely right.. but let's say it's about abusing poor NPC's IA... If they didn't stand in AoE or just spammed skills randomly, i'm pretty sure there would be less problems there...

About game not being done for a lower population : i don't know... There are arguments pros and cons , some being quite illogic :
- it would have made some sense to have 6v6 HA( GvG eventually but that would be fine already) with heroes allowed today and not in 2006
- PvE with 7 heroes is obviously made to counter that problem...
- some formats require too many players to live ( plus it requires the fun and the reward to make those players come)... deleted ones didn't require a lot

In my opinion, i would just say " they never cared of PvP " rather than the game isn't made for a low population...

superraptors · Aug 22, 2011, 12:24 PM // 12:24

turn fa into dota style. fixd

oh and bad thing about heroes in pvp you can have them scripted perfectly to execute a crystal clean spike.

urania · Aug 22, 2011, 02:37 PM // 14:37

they already do that in pve. wts perfect synchro ion cannon spikes.

Missing HB · Aug 22, 2011, 04:09 PM // 16:09

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

oh and bad thing about heroes in pvp you can have them scripted perfectly to execute a crystal clean spike.

I did win a lot with rspike heroway in the past.. it was actually quite easy to do after you tried a few times..

Problem however is that you can't control those henchs they gave us... which leads to some jokes. Although they are quite OP at spamming hexes with perfect e-management... they usually don't target the right guy.. or even heal NPC's..
Blahks and tutella are almost never using any skill on ghostly hero... nor are julyia and frohs on guild lord... this fact is quite annoying ...

Coast · Aug 22, 2011, 07:52 PM // 19:52

lol, that r spike with heroes was insane: prepared shot+sundering and penetrating shot

Our Virus · Aug 22, 2011, 10:18 PM // 22:18

Don't people get good at things by trial and error? It's not that insanely hard to watch a pvp match to get a general idea then apply. Keep trying until you are good at it? Most high ranked players just play invoke spike bc it's easy, learn that first.

superraptors · Aug 22, 2011, 11:53 PM // 23:53

heroes were always a bad thing, people took heroes over real players because a hero could play that bar 100 times better then a real player could, did u even obs when heroes were still in play before they were removed, they infested top 200 gvg and every toomz group had 2 heroes in em.

Missing HB · Aug 23, 2011, 06:59 AM // 06:59

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

heroes were always a bad thing, people took heroes over real players because a hero could play that bar 100 times better then a real player could, did u even obs when heroes were still in play before they were removed, they infested top 200 gvg and every toomz group had 2 heroes in em.

Yet, heroes would :
- help low ranked players to win a few fights considering they are " too OP"
- help low ranked players ( or anyone) to be able to play at anytime( americans and asians say hi)

Besides, if it's still a problem, then being able to team with those henchs instead of heroes could be an option....( not many OP bars and henchs aren't targeting ghost/glord anyway so that won't be much a matter)

The OP wants to deal with " elitism in a not matchmaking/league system way " . That means you at least have to deal with :
- inactivity
- people playing for the reward only ( read... finding a solution which won't make players coming getting farmed by smurfers or w/e...)

Anyway, they won't do anything so we shall not care... but i don't believe anything else that teams with full henchs will solve the situation..

Reverend Dr · Aug 23, 2011, 07:27 PM // 19:27

Quote:

Originally Posted by Our Virus

Don't people get good at things by trial and error?

Not strictly speaking. It takes the right attitude to be able to improve. The very first step is to admit you've done something wrong, which so many people would never admit to doing (even to just themselves).

This is why mentoring programs didn't work.

superraptors · Aug 24, 2011, 01:52 AM // 01:52

Quote:

Originally Posted by Missing HB

Yet, heroes would :
- help low ranked players to win a few fights considering they are " too OP"
- help low ranked players ( or anyone) to be able to play at anytime( americans and asians say hi)

Besides, if it's still a problem, then being able to team with those henchs instead of heroes could be an option....( not many OP bars and henchs aren't targeting ghost/glord anyway so that won't be much a matter)

The OP wants to deal with " elitism in a not matchmaking/league system way " . That means you at least have to deal with :
- inactivity
- people playing for the reward only ( read... finding a solution which won't make players coming getting farmed by smurfers or w/e...)

Anyway, they won't do anything so we shall not care... but i don't believe anything else that teams with full henchs will solve the situation..

pvp not pve.

Jeydra · Aug 24, 2011, 04:51 AM // 04:51

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

heroes were always a bad thing, people took heroes over real players because a hero could play that bar 100 times better then a real player could, did u even obs when heroes were still in play before they were removed, they infested top 200 gvg and every toomz group had 2 heroes in em.

Really? When was the last time heroway won a mAT (or won silver, for that matter)? I remember one guild running Lacerate heroway on Corrupted Isle, but they lost flawless, if I recall correctly..

Reverend Dr · Aug 24, 2011, 11:56 PM // 23:56

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jeydra

Really? When was the last time heroway won a mAT (or won silver, for that matter)? I remember one guild running Lacerate heroway on Corrupted Isle, but they lost flawless, if I recall correctly..

You are deliberately being obtuse as to ignore the difference between GvG and HA. In GvG movement and player's individual actions are extremely important, often times individuals will be moving or reacting alone. This is something that even amazingly microed heroes will simply never be able to do.

These type of issues really start to disappear when you get into HA. HA maps are significantly smaller and most end up with teams butting heads against each other until one cracks. When was the last time heroway won halls? Every RED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GORED ENGINE GOing night.

Even then the prevailing reason that so many, myself included, wanted them out of the game was that they were:
1) not satisfying to play with (If we didn't have 8 humans, we'd rather do nothing than grab a hero)
2) not satisfying to play against (We would rather lose to 8 humans than steamroll a team with heroes)

Jeydra · Aug 25, 2011, 12:40 AM // 00:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by superraptors

heroes were always a bad thing, people took heroes over real players because a hero could play that bar 100 times better then a real player could, did u even obs when heroes were still in play before they were removed, they infested top 200 gvg and every toomz group had 2 heroes in em.

I didn't see many heroes in top 200 GvG. I don't know / don't care about HA.

Also good for you that you'd rather do nothing than play with heroes, but I'm the opposite. I can't count the number of times I've tried to form GvG and there hadn't been enough players. One time maybe, but if you keep trying and failing for two whole weeks you might change your mind.

PS: I don't find it unsatisfying if I beat to a team with henchmen, although I admit I feel like an idiot if I lose to one.
PPS: Heroes do nothing a player can't do, and they come with lots of intrinsic disadvantages. Somehow I feel that people lose to heroway because they play bad. Before you start mentioning Gwen's 1337 interrupts, I'll say that if interrupts are the problem, nerf hero AI, not remove heroes from PvP.